Episode 42

full
Published on:

11th Jun 2026

The Ecosystem That Breaks Foremen

Contact details:

Andrew has a variety of free downloads and tools you can grab:

Discover if your workshop is Retention Worthy© here or visit his website, https://www.solutionsculture.com where the focus is on bringing reliable profitability to automotive workshop owners and workshop management through the Retention, Engagement and Development of their Technical Professionals.

Co-host: Anthony Perl

Produced by: 'Podcasts Done for You'

Transcript
Anthony Perl:

The ecosystem that breaks foremen.

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Join passionate automotive trainer and

coach Andrew Uglow as he unpacks the

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CAMPS framework, customers, advisors,

managers, parts, and sales, and reveals

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how these so-called time vampires

quietly pull foremen away from the

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work they are actually responsible for.

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In this episode, you'll learn why most

foreman burnout is not a personal failure,

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how urgency drags good people off their

mark, and why the foreman and service

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manager must work as a pair to protect

time, boundaries, and performance.

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Discover how to spot the systematic

pressures that keep foremen firefighting,

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and understand why the skill that got

someone promoted is not always the skill

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that makes them effective in the role.

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Along the way, you'll hear why leadership,

not just management, is the missing link

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in fixing the people

gap inside the workshop.

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I'm your co-host Anthony Perl, and this

is the Frictionless Workshop podcast.

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Let's get cranking.

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Andrew, I think we've got to tackle

this whole issue of the ecosystem

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that breaks foremen, because we've

been skirting around the edges of--

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We've talked in previous episodes

about capability and about measuring.

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But at the end of the day, what

is this ecosystem that is really

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going to cause the big issues?

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Andrew Uglow: Yeah.

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So I call this CAMPS, C-A-M-P-S,

CAMPS, which stands for customers,

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advisors, managers, parts, and sales.

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And, and I, I call them time vampires,

and I'm, I mean this in the nicest way.

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I…

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nothing malicious.

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I'm sure the people that work in

the business are great people.

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I'm sure they mean well.

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They're trying to get their

job done, without question.

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And at the same time, these

are all the things that absorb,

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mystically absorb the foreman's

time In addition to all of the other

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responsibilities that the foreman has.

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And so I don't want to turn this

into a whinge about, you know, oh,

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the parts department, or the service

advisors, or this and all that.

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This is about a systemic issue that,

that exists, and if, if we can't call

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it out, well, how can we possibly

make steps towards addressing it?

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So yeah, CAMPS.

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It's the, it's the, it's the, the

pieces that are the time black hole.

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You know, I just spent 10 minutes,

20 minutes, an hour solving someone

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else's problem, and I didn't

get my responsibilities done.

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And so as a foreman, I keep

getting dragged off my mark.

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I keep getting pushed off my spots,

like being in the, in the ocean in,

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in, in waist-deep water, and you're

getting pushed around as the, as

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the currents and the tide move.

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And you, you're supposed to be

doing these things and you're not.

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You're doing those things.

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And for foreman, it's really frustrating.

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It's a big contributor to foreman

burnout, and it's also a really big

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contributor for some of the really

negative internal dialogue that I know

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that foremen run because they look at

their performance and they go, "Well, I

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should be able to do this, and I should

be able to do that, and I should have

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done this, and I should have done that."

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And they should all over themselves,

but at the end of the day, they were

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never taught how to manage this.

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They weren't given structures,

strategies, methodologies, tactics

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for dealing with th- the CAMPS, the

customers, advisors, managers, parts

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and sales teams that absorb their time.

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And it's not that those people are evil.

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They're not.

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They're trying to get their job done.

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But we're out of balance.

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And so I go back to this is a

systemic issue, not a personal issue.

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Anthony Perl: Begs the question then,

you know, with all of this stuff is

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how do you actually address this in

a meaningful way and pull it apart?

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Because I think one of the, one of

the issues that happens i- in all

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kinds of workplaces all the time,

and particularly on ones of the scale

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that we're talking about, is there's

this notion that everything is urgent.

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And so how do you fit

that into this landscape?

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Andrew Uglow: It's funny, I was listening

to a business psychologist, and they

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were talking about how the human

brain is wired to respond to urgency.

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You know, it comes out, out

of our, our primal part of the

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brain, fight, flight, freeze.

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You know, something, you know, when

there's a, a large animal about to

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eat me, well, that's somewhat urgent.

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You know?

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Sure, it's important that I, I, you

know, tuck my kids into bed, but

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that's not urgent at this point.

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So we respond neurologically to this.

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And so I go back to, if we're

going to resolve this issue,

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step one is a- awareness.

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If we don't have, firstly, even general

awareness, but better if we can have some

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really specific awareness around what's

actually happening, it's gonna be really

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challenging to put in place the parts

that need to be there to resolve this.

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And let me just put on my realism

hat and just go, I'm not sure

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that you ever will solve it.

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What I believe you can do

is you can mitigate it.

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You can stop it from stealing

as much of your time as a

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foreman that it currently does.

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And so this comes back if we go,

okay, so there's a problem here.

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Foreman's getting pushed

from pillar to post.

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They're getting pushed off their mark.

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They should be doing these things.

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They're now doing those things.

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We need them to do those things because

no one else can do those things, so w-

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we don't have another solution for that.

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So one of the challenges has

been that we just keep responding

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out of this urgency, and

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We don't pause and step back and

go, "Ah, well, hang on a minute.

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Let's take a little bit of a meta view.

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Let's do a helicopter view

and find out what's, what's,

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what's the driver behind that?

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What's the driver behind that?

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What's the driver behind that?"

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And I go, this is the foreman's job.

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Sure, the service manager owns this

'cause this foreman reports to the

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service manager, and there are parts

around good systems, good processes.

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There are parts where the service

manager has to have a discussion with

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the sales manager or the parts manager

or whoever it is and say, "Hey, look,

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want to help you, and can we do this?

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Because it's gonna work better for me

than it is what's happening now, and

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you'll get your stuff done as well."

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And so good systems and good

processes, and sometimes there

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needs to be some good discussions.

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Sometimes, and certainly this has been

my experience, some people that do work

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in those parts of the business maybe

shouldn't be working in those parts of the

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business Lovely people and all, but just

not suited to that role, or not skilled in

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that role, or not suited for the industry.

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And so you can-- I'm sure you

appreciate what I mean when I say that.

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Um, and have them work for

someone else rather than you.

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Those big pieces, th- those, those

big chunks, sure, they exist.

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Got to address that.

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But at the foreman level, the foreman

needs a way to, and we spoke about this

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before, how to maintain boundaries.

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So when someone comes to me

and says, "Andrew, I need

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you to da, da, da, da, da."

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Okay, no problems.

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But I've got all this other work.

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Which one of these am I gonna

drop in order to do that?

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Because I can't do both.

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And that's a tough conversation to

have because everything's urgent.

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You know, do, do you want

me to stop work on Mrs.

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McGillicuddy's car so I can work on Mr.

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Smythe's car?

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Because I can't do both.

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But the challenge is that foremen come out

of this world where when the pressure's

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on, they've got this really good work

ethic, generally speaking, maybe not

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all of them, but a lot of them, and

the pressure's on, fine, I go harder.

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You know?

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Just, you know, try me.

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Let, show, let me show you what I can do.

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And, and, and, and they do.

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They're very resourceful, very effective,

very-- This is why they're foreman, right?

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They're foreman because

they're good at what they do.

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But that doesn't work

in the role of foreman.

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The skill that got you to foreman

isn't the skill that makes

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you successful as a foreman.

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And, and no one seems to have

explained that to foremen or service

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managers even, for that matter.

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Anthony Perl: Speaking of service

managers then, where do they

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fit into the equation of this?

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Andrew Uglow: Yeah.

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So having, I'm gonna use the

word privilege to work for a

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high-capability foreman and an

exceptional service manager.

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They, they manage this as a pair.

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This is a two-person challenge, right?

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So one of the things that I saw them

do was they put in place processes

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for certain types of things.

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So if there was a parts issue that

needed the foreman's attention,

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well, okay, let's-- that comes

to the service manager first.

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The service manager then does the

triage and goes, "Yeah, we'll get to

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that tomorrow," or, "We'll address it

now," or, "I'll have a technician come

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and do that for you," or, "One of my

service team will, will address it."

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So the, the service manager becomes

the filter for most of these things.

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So when sales go, "Oh, we've got a

car that's supposed to go out and,

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and pre-delivery didn't do this,"

or, "They didn't do that," or,

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"The battery's gone flat and I need

it done now and the customer's on

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the way and we're all gonna die."

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Sure, okay.

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We can address the urgent that are the

urgent, but don't just stop at that.

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Like go and put in place a

process so that doesn't happen.

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And usually the reason that the foreman's

the fixer is because there is a cascade

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of things that have gone wrong, and

they just end up being the bunny.

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And if they don't have the skill of

maintaining boundaries and having,

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I'll call them effective conversations,

they might be a bit challenging, but

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effective conversations and going, "Well,

hey, here's the reality of my world.

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I still have these responsibilities

even though this has occurred for you.

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How are we gonna make this work?"

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Uh, because there's usually a way.

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And look, sometimes it does mean

that the foreman doubles down or

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stays late or there's overtime or

there's, there's these other things.

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But just having everything get dropped

on the foreman's desk is profoundly

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ineffective, and I'm gonna argue harmful.

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Anthony Perl: The Frictionless

Workshop podcast is brought

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to you by Solutions Culture.

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For details on how to get in touch with

Andrew, consult the show notes below.

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And don't forget to subscribe

so you don't miss an episode.

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Now, back to the podcast.

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What's interesting too here is, is that

it kind of points out to this issue

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that we've talked about in previous

episodes, where just because you're

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the best at the job doesn't mean

that you should be the person that

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is next batter up to be the foreman.

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Because the negative of that as well

is, is you can be taking your best

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technician off the floor, and in this

kind of situation can be proving that

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they've got the ability to fix the

problems, so just maybe if they were

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there fixing the problems all the time

and not being the foreman, we wouldn't

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have the problems in the first place.

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Andrew Uglow: Yeah.

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So do I have permission just

to be out and out honest here?

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And I'm not gonna be rude, but I

just, I wanna call a spade a spade,

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because if we don't get awareness,

like how can you fix anything?

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So is that all right?

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Anthony Perl: Your show.

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You've gotta, you've gotta

have the honest- Yeah.

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We, we've gotta be honest

with you, don't we?

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But it's a-- But you're right.

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Uh, you're 100% right, and I think

it, people should be nodding their

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heads when they're listening here.

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Andrew Uglow: So if you wanna track

this back to cause and effect, and,

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and there's layers and levels of

cause and effect, this is a systemic

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failure, and this is, this is a

systemic failure at a leadership level.

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So this, this starts with

the dealer principal.

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And dealer principals, if

you're listening, please, I'm

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not throwing you under the bus.

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I recognize the difficulty and

complexity that you deal with.

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Uh, and at the same time, given

the reports, and we're gonna talk

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about this in another episode.

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Given all the reports and the, the

pressure and tension on margin and all

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these sorts of things, this is the perfect

time to go and solve the leadership issue.

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And the leadership issue starts with you.

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Uh, but it cascades down.

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And

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there is a vacuum of leadership.

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We're, we're pretty good at management,

generally speaking, in automotive,

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but there is a vacuum of leadership,

and the two are not the same.

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Leadership looks after the person as

much as they look after the numbers,

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and the consequence of looking after the

person is you look after the numbers.

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You just do, because

people produce numbers.

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The numbers don't just

magically occur by themselves.

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Sure, you need systems, technology,

all those pieces, gotta have.

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Sure.

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But it's the person who's

delivering the outcomes.

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And so start with the person.

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Don't start with the system

and throw the person at it.

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Start with the person.

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It matters.

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And when we talk about starting

with the person, everybody needs

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reward, recognition, and resource.

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If they don't have the resources,

how can they possibly perform?

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And the difference between retention

and departure are those three things:

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recognition, reward, resource.

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It's not hard.

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Other indus- industries can manage it.

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In fact, other indus- industries do

brilliantly because they don't get

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stuck in this obsessive compulsive

monthly urgent cycle of hit my numbers

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If I manage my people well, if I lead

my people well, if I install leaders, if

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leadership's not my strength, no problems.

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Find someone who has that and install

them in the business, and then let

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them continue to install leaders.

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Because if my foreman has a great

manager, then I'll have a great foreman.

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And if I've got a great foreman, I'll

have a great technical team because the

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foreman produces a great technical team.

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It doesn't happen overnight,

but it happens because

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that's what great foremen do.

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And if I've got a great technical

team, how can I not hit the numbers?

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How can I not maintain and retain

my people, maintain my skill

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and retain my peop- like this,

this is cascade up and down.

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We know this.

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This is not new

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80/20.

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I know 20% of the industry are

doing it really, really well, and

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this shows in Deloitte's figures.

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If you're across the lat- latest industry

Deloitte report, you'll see it there

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And the ones that aren't, arguably

it's 70/30, but let's call it

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80/20 'cause we love Pareto.

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The ones that aren't are

the ones that struggle.

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They're the ones that are,

are really feeling the pain.

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And De- Deloitte came out and

said this, and, and we'll talk

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about that in the next episode.

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Um, but Deloitte came out and

said, "This is a people problem.

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As much as it is a numbers and a

financial problem, it's a people problem."

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So yeah, get it done.

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Anthony Perl: It's interesting to me

when you look at some of the things that

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you've been saying there, particularly in

regards to the best people, because it's

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the best people for the team, isn't it?

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I mean, I think sometimes it's not always

the top people in every single position

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that are going to make you work well.

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I mean, you'd look at

that in a football team.

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Often the football teams that get amazing

results are the ones that work as a team.

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There might only be one or two

out-and-out superstars, but it's

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the team mentality that goes well.

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Whereas sometimes, and you look at

international teams, and you put the

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best of everybody in the best positions,

there's too many people fighting for

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control, and it just doesn't work.

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Andrew Uglow: Yeah.

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Jim Collins, I forget the name of

his book, he talks about getting

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the right people on the bus.

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So the right people on the bus in

the right seats, and it matters.

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And so maybe your service

manager might be a great manager.

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You need leadership across

your service and parts.

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You don't need more management,

you need more leadership, because

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leadership plays from a human element

as much as they play from the business.

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They don't ignore the business.

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It's not one or the other.

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It's parallel, and the gap is the

people gap, and that's what's hurting.

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That's what's showing up

in the financial figures.

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Anthony Perl: So just to wrap

up this episode, give us a

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tip for what they can do.

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What is the one lever that they should

be pulling in this particular scenario?

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Andrew Uglow: So for foreman, my, my

response would be to, to, to maintain

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your boundaries and to do it respectfully

because the person that's asking me to do

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this, they're trying to get stuff done.

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They've been put in a tight spot too.

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So do it with empathy, right?

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Don't do it-- Don't throw

them under the bus, okay?

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'Cause you got, gotta work together.

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And, and where you can,

bit of give, bit of take.

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Um, but that question that I mentioned

earlier, "Okay, if I do this for

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you, what can you do for me?"

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Or, "How can you help

me get my things done?"

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'Cause there might be something.

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Now, obviously, if it's diagnosed a,

a deep, complex, complan- compound

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technical issue, perhaps asking the

parts guy to do that is a bad idea.

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But there might be something

else that the parts guy could do

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that could speed up another part

of the system or the business.

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"Hey, look, could you da, da,

da, da, da, da, da for me?"

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Because that now takes the time

that I was going to spend here away.

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That solves that problem for me.

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So start to think a

bit more strategically.

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But also ask that question too of, of

particularly when it comes down from

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the top- "Hey, you know, Andrew, I need

you to go and do this, this, this."

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No problemo.

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Which one of these do you want

to have held up while I do that?

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Because that gets the thinking out

of the urgent panic, we're all gonna

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die, into a more strategic stream.

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And when you start to be more strategic,

you can actually avoid the potholes

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before they, before you hit them.

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Anthony Perl: Well, that's all

we have time for in this episode.

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But if you realize today that your

foreman is being dragged off their mark by

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customers, advisors, managers, parts, and

sales, it is time to stop treating that as

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a personality problem, and as Andrew says,

start treating it as a system problem.

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The next step is to look at where

urgency is stealing time, where

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boundaries are missing, and where

the service manager needs to become

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the filter rather than letting every

problem land on the foreman's desk.

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A workbook has been created to

accompany this episode of the podcast.

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It's got questions for you to

answer, key quotes from the

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episode, and action steps to take.

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You can download your copy from

the link in the show notes.

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Lots of information in there as well

on how to get in touch with Andrew

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and his team at Solutions Culture.

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Make sure you share this with

your service manager as well.

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But whatever you do, don't miss our

next episode because Andrew will

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be unpacking how to install foreman

effectiveness without tanking the month.

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He gets into why sending a foreman

off to a two-day training course

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can actually compound the problem,

and why coaching may be the missing

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bridge between knowing there is a

capability gap and actually closing it.

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If you want to build foremen who can

perform without blowing up productivity,

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you can't afford to miss the episode.

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If you found value in today's episode,

wherever you're tuning in, please

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like, share, comment, and subscribe

so you never miss an episode.

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Until next time, keep your workshop

running smooth and frictionless

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About the Podcast

The Friction-less Workshop
For automotive dealerships and aftermarket teams
If you own, manage or work in an automotive workshop – this podcast is for you. Andrew Uglow has followed his passion for discovering the secrets of how things work and how to fix them,
since falling in love with all things ‘cars’ as a teenager,

Always ‘hands-on,’ whether as an apprentice, working in national roles for global manufacturers, or running his own business, his quest for the how and why of both people and technology has given him a unique and important perspective, especially timely for the challenges facing today’s workshop owners, managers, and their teams.

Hear from someone who has spent decades training thousands around the world on how to succeed in their roles despite all the obstacles. You will learn new insights and stories about what works and what does not, including the simple tips and tricks that will make a massive impact

This is a unique podcast for the automotive industry with a perspective born from decades of hard-won experience.

Andrew has a variety of free downloads and tools you can grab.
Discover if your workshop is Retention Worthy© here or visit his website, https://www.solutionsculture.com where the focus is on bringing reliable profitability to automotive workshop owners and workshop management through the Retention, Engagement and Development of their Technical Professionals.

This podcast was produced by 'Podcasts Done for You' https://commtogether.com.au .